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Pre-Tournament Thread 
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Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 6:34 pm
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Hey guys, so as some of you know we are going to be running tournaments during the Kickstarter campaign, which will then become a regular community event after that as well.

Arthur is hard at work on making the AI different/better so the tournament will be more fun to watch and the ships will make better choices. We will make a big announcement on Wednesday with an update to Kickstarter and all of the official rules here, but I just wanted to get some feedback before then.

Last time the main classes were 250P, 1000P, 3000P and 6000P. Arthur and I both felt they worked pretty well, but if you guys have any suggestions on tweaks or other rule changes for those classes we would love to hear them. Also was everyone happy with the 90 second match time and then damage leader wins rules?

We are also going to switch up the specialty classes. Out of the 4 we had last time: Macross Massacre, Sword Fight, Glass Cannon and Tanks, which ones did you think were fun to design/watch fight and which should be dropped?

Camo had a few ideas for classes that he told us during the stream yesterday that might be interesting. A laser only class, a proton beam/sword class, and a point defense/mining laser class. He also suggested a spinning recoil ship class, that only allowed non-turreted cannons set at 90 degree angles to each other. That might be tough to do later on when we have to automate checking whether something complies with the class rules, but we can probably do it for now.

Does anyone else have suggestions for other classes?

Just a reminder to hold off on submissions, we will do another submission page like last time.


Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:39 pm
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I know you said there'd be a tournament every Sunday for the remainder of the Kickstarter. After that, though, I would suggest slowing down the tournaments to once a month maybe. It takes time to build ships, especially if you're one of those people who has to go and extensively test their designs against multiple enemies in various possible circumstances... It would also make each tournament much larger, with many more ships and therefore a lot more fun.

I'm okay with the current classes, though since the tournament is running off of arthur's hardware (I think) could we have a larger category? Like a 15k P category called Titans or Behemoths or World Destroyers (well, maybe a 100k P limit would be more befitting that last name).

For the specialty classes, I didn't really like the Macross Massacre (not because my ship got destroyed...) because I know that it's basically going to come down to dodging on that one, and we might even end up with a tie battle where neither ship gets hit. The other categories were pretty good though, no problems there.

I have a suggestion for a category- Turtles, where you are only allowed to use a very limited number of thrusters (or perhaps none at all). It will be hilarious. Not sure what we'd do if two ships with short ranged weapons are spawned far apart from each other though.

Another suggestion- A team effort. Basically two people pair up, each one designs a ship. These two ships are on a team and they fight another team of ships. The time limit will probably have to be extended a bit. I just think that collaboration is an aspect that should be included in this competition.

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Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:43 pm
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I VOTE THAT LAST ONE, I VOTE THAT LAST ONE, I VOTE THAT LAST ONE.

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Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:50 pm
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I'd suggest making it so that weight classes stack up more fairly.

3001 and 6499 are in the same bracket, but not in the same power.


Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:45 pm
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Why would anyone make a 3001 P ship? They could take off a single part and get into a lower bracket. I just build ships that fit the upper limit of each category as closely as possible (adding extra thrusters is good for filling up those last few P once you've put on all the weapons) and I assumed everyone else did the same.

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Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:41 pm
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Deceleration wrote:
Why would anyone make a 3001 P ship? They could take off a single part and get into a lower bracket. I just build ships that fit the upper limit of each category as closely as possible (adding extra thrusters is good for filling up those last few P once you've put on all the weapons) and I assumed everyone else did the same.


They do, but in practice its somewhat redundant then, isn't it? Why have these sort of gaps?

I think you get what I mean?
Why bother having bracket gaps when people just go for as high as possible, there is no tradeoff to
being a smaller e count in the higher brackets.


Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:48 pm
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Horizon wrote:
They do, but in practice its somewhat redundant then, isn't it? Why have these sort of gaps?

I think you get what I mean?
Why bother having bracket gaps when people just go for as high as possible, there is no tradeoff to
being a smaller e count in the higher brackets.

The point of having set bracket values is so that you can know that other ships will be worth around the same P cost.
If there was no brackets set up you'd have no idea whether you'd be facing a 200P probe or a 200000P monstership.
If you want to you could go and submit a 3001P ship into the 6000P category, it's your own choice, the brackets give you a goal to build for.

----

Personal thoughts on existing classes:
    250P, 1000P, 3000P and 6000P - all worked well.
    Macross Massacre - not likely to be a viable category until we get better missile AI/flightpaths.
    Sword Fight - not the best category imo but still serviceable, if there were more short range weapons then a "brawler" category might be better.
    Glass Cannon - battles were generally over too fast, not all that enjoyable imo.
    Tanks - worked well, maybe some variety on weapons allowed? Autocannons, Plasma Projectors and maybe Torpedos?

Class ideas for the next Tournament:
    250P, 1000P, 3000P and 6000P - as before [if it ain't broke don't fix it]
    Sword Fight - as before [I know this class could be improved, but can't quite think how with the current parts available]
    Tanks - as before, but Autocannons + Plasma Projectors also allowed.
    F2 class - 3000P limit, this category could cycle through the non-player fleets each contest. [bonus points for fitting in with the fleets aesthetic theme? :P]
    Carriers - Only weapons: Missiles/Drones/Mines/Torpedoes, an expansion on the Macross class, possibly more interesting? [I'd say factories as well, [Only able to spawn the a pre-chosen ship, say "8_skirmisher"] but child ships might mess with the scoring code]


Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:56 pm
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Uh, I don't see a real problem here. Why do you want there to not be a reason to go as high as possible for each bracket? The P count of a ship determines how many "resources" the ship is worth. Ships of the same P level should therefore compete against each other for the fight to be fair. There should be no reason that anyone would build a ship that is significantly below the P limit of a bracket and get it into that bracket. Why would you make a 3001 P ship and make it fight 6k P ships? Just build a ship that is close to the P limit of that category so the fight will be fair.

Now, if you do make a 3001 P ship and submit it to the 6k P category, and it wins, you really shouldn't get any special recognition beyond the normal winning a category either. Sure, it means your design was really good, but it already won the tournament, so who cares.

@Amazigh: Adding autocannons and plasma projectors to the Tanks category wouldn't really change much, since autocannons and plasma projectors get heavily outranged by plasma cannons, so I think most serious designers will stick with plasma cannons.

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Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:06 am
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Deceleration wrote:
Uh, I don't see a real problem here. Why do you want there to not be a reason to go as high as possible for each bracket? The P count of a ship determines how many "resources" the ship is worth. Ships of the same P level should therefore compete against each other for the fight to be fair. There should be no reason that anyone would build a ship that is significantly below the P limit of a bracket and get it into that bracket. Why would you make a 3001 P ship and make it fight 6k P ships? Just build a ship that is close to the P limit of that category so the fight will be fair.

Now, if you do make a 3001 P ship and submit it to the 6k P category, and it wins, you really shouldn't get any special recognition beyond the normal winning a category either. Sure, it means your design was really good, but it already won the tournament, so who cares.

@Amazigh: Adding autocannons and plasma projectors to the Tanks category wouldn't really change much, since autocannons and plasma projectors get heavily outranged by plasma cannons, so I think most serious designers will stick with plasma cannons.


Jeeze you're bitter.

The point is to instead of pretending to have a moderately fair weight class system like in say... boxing.
Just have a mark you need to hit.

Do you understand?

Its no longer going to be 3001-6000, it'll be just 6000 ships.


Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:11 am
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Deceleration wrote:
@Amazigh: Adding autocannons and plasma projectors to the Tanks category wouldn't really change much, since autocannons and plasma projectors get heavily outranged by plasma cannons, so I think most serious designers will stick with plasma cannons.

With the improved AI arthur is making, I'd assume that ships will close to relevant ranges, making those weapons potentially viable.


Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:17 am
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