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Fleet tournament point system rework 
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Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:55 pm
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So, I've been noticing lately that although the points system used in tournaments to determine a victor upon time-out works fairly well in ship dueling tournaments, it has a tendency to be enormously unfair in fleet battles. During testing, I found that a fleet I put together consistently lost against a particular test opponent by points... except that my fleet only actually lost three or four fighters out of fifteen fighters (~250P) plus three frigates (~1000P), whereas the enemy fleet lost everything except one or two fighters (they kept running away until time-out). And yet, the enemy still always wins on points because their weapon loadouts are better at farming points without being actually effective, whereas mine efficiently killed their targets with very few points gained. The enemy fleet had 1.5 times as many points as mine and consequently won on time-out, despite having one fourteenth as many P worth of ships left.

Now, I'm sure the argument could be made that it's a valid tournament tactic to create a fleet which can only win on points despite being decimated in actual combat, but quite honestly I just don't agree. It's not enjoyable, to me at least, to have winning depend largely on what ships have weapons that gain points faster, rather that which ones can actually hold their own in a fight.

As such, I would put forward the suggestion that in tournament battles where at least one side has at least two ships in their fleet, victory upon time-out should be given to the side which has the highest P worth of ships remaining. The points system would then remain only for one-on-one ship dueling tournaments.


Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:15 pm
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I had a suggestion similar to this. My recommendation was to count points only when modules are destroyed (or shields are completely lowered, in their case) and to award points for every piece connected to the command module when the command module is destroyed.

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Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:41 pm
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I would certainly like a redesign of the points system to reward militarily effective designs rather than point-farmers. This will bring selection pressures for success more in line with those experienced in the regular game.

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Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:41 pm
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Something that might be interesting would be to at the end of each round scale the number of points you've scored by the percentage of your fleet, in terms of P cost that is left, eg:

Fleet 1 has 400,000 points
Fleet 2 has 80,000 points

Fleet 1 has 1,000P/40,000P of ships left (1/40)
Fleet 2 has not lost a single ship

So Fleet 1 would have its score scaled down to 10,000 points, while Fleet 2 would have its score unchanged.
This would promote fleets that can both deal damage, and stay alive.

Maybe not as extreme a scaling of points, but the general idea remains.


Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:20 pm
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Owlfeathers0117 wrote:
victory upon time-out should be given to the side which has the highest P worth of ships remaining.
I had been thinking pretty much exactly this.
Amazigh wrote:
scale the number of points you've scored by the percentage of your fleet, in terms of P cost that is left
Sounds pretty sensible. It would leave 1v1 battle outcomes entirely unaffected: either knock-out or draw with no scaling (if P-remaining is counted by original design, rather than ship parts physically present?).

In terms of meta, I think this would discourage swarms (including most spinners), but favour (melee) trolls even more (and runners)...? Also add complication to the game, etc, so would have to be worth it.

Edit: If willing to add more analytical features you could graph the P remaining value, and do an even more complex calculation of who would probably have come out on top, in the long run (based on current rate of attrition).

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Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:45 pm
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I wouldn't mind a mode for victory by complete obliteration, no time limit. That would make it more challenging and we would see lots more fierce combat. (or two trolls sitting poking each other for hours, the idea still needs work to be implemented.)

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Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:34 pm
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I think it can be simply solved without drastically changing the game by awarding 1,000 points per enemy module killed.

That way, next time you think about building a 400 ship fleet you could potentially be giving 3,900,000 points to a well built enemy fleet :P

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Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:01 pm
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Harmless wrote:
I think it can be simply solved without drastically changing the game by awarding 1,000 points per enemy module killed.

That way, next time you think about building a 400 ship fleet you could potentially be giving 3,900,000 points to a well built enemy fleet :P



I don't really favour that idea, mostly because it would mean that having small fighters in your fleet, in any quantity above zero, would almost never be worthwhile. I don't mean just fleets made fully of tiny fighters, but even mixing a few little ships in with large capital ships would become pretty much non-viable unless you were 100% sure that your fleet could always kill the enemy before time-out. You could maybe tweak the exact number of points given for command module kills to reach a better number, but I don't see any way to balance that in such a way that small ships retain viability as well as actually solving the problem.


Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:29 pm
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Owlfeathers0117 wrote:
Harmless wrote:
I think it can be simply solved without drastically changing the game by awarding 1,000 points per enemy module killed.

That way, next time you think about building a 400 ship fleet you could potentially be giving 3,900,000 points to a well built enemy fleet :P



I don't really favour that idea, mostly because it would mean that having small fighters in your fleet, in any quantity above zero, would almost never be worthwhile. I don't mean just fleets made fully of tiny fighters, but even mixing a few little ships in with large capital ships would become pretty much non-viable unless you were 100% sure that your fleet could always kill the enemy before time-out. You could maybe tweak the exact number of points given for command module kills to reach a better number, but I don't see any way to balance that in such a way that small ships retain viability as well as actually solving the problem.


My idea is a bit more complicated, but I think more fair. When a component is destroyed, award point value based on that component's value. Some system would have to be determined so that modules with no point value award points fairly when compared to those that do. As it is now, using melee spikes or armor awards significantly more points than shields, but then again provide substantially more raw health so it's a bit of a toss-up.

The most important part of my suggestion, though, is that when a command module is destroyed all components still connected are tabulated as though they were also destroyed. So if your little ship gets hit by artillery or something and gets vaporized, it may provide 100 points, for example. In the current system, it would award almost nothing. You can see this exact problem often if you watch Direct Damage's matches in my September tournament. If points were awarded the way I suggest, I'm pretty sure DD would have had significantly more wins than it did.

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Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:17 pm
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Actually, yeah, that's a better idea. Though to be fair almost all swarm fleets have their little ships with almost nothing on them, so there still needs to be some sort of base value for destroying command modules. Maybe 50 points per module?

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Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:37 pm
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